Forum Topic

Enabling Brentford FC new stadium - how about this

The following development proposal will enable Brentford FC to survive and prosper with a brand new stadium, secured funding and no p**sed off neighbours:1) Redevelop the existing stadium into 100 town houses which would sell quite happily at £500k each.  It's a perfect land size for this and would fit in equally perfectly with the surrounding houses. 2) Build half a dozen 5 story blocks of flats on the Dead Mans Graves site.  Total number of flats would be 200 - ie bang on the maximum recommended density for this area, and they'd sell for say £400k each.  Income from 1 & 2 is £130m.  Allowing a £30m financing and build cost for the houses and flats this leaves £100 million surplus.3) Use £70m of the surplus to build a nice new stadium at the existing Brentford FC training ground.  It's in Osterly, which is as close to Brentford as makes no odds so no worries about Brentford FC having to move to Surrey.4) The remaining £30m will keep Brentford FC running for the next 6 years, by which time it should be into a nice profit.Any objections anyone??

Lorne Gifford ● 4235d51 Comments

What seems to be overlooked is that the new surrounding developments will have a much higher density of residential population than is current in Griffin Park.It is highly likely that the future residents will be within their rights to have activities at Lionel road stadium severely curtailed.Without adequate parking and a clear road system, the venue will be a white elephant as it will suffer the same problems as other local stadia.Mr Benham stands to lose a lot of income - Unless the development happens but over a longer term..What happens then?

Anthony Waller ● 4228d

ChrisI think many local residents are worried about having a stadium that willl be used more than 24 days a year nearby. But the big issue is the size and the height of the enabling development. Obtaining detailed planning permisssion for this may be a problem.It us intersting to see that Willmott Dixon has come on board as Mathew Benham's development partner.

David Giles ● 4228d

Anyway you wanted some figures so here you are (back of another fag packet):For nice development the selling cost in Brentford/chiswick border area is £7k per m2. Go check some estate agents and divide price by floor area.  A typical new build 1/2 bedroom flat is about 56m2 so sale cost is £400kBuild costs for a typical 5 story steel framed apartment building - including all extras ie including land, legal, professional etc. are about £1800 per m2So, cost to build is 100k and price to sell is 400k.Can I see your number now

Lorne Gifford ● 4232d

Interesting point that one:'Although we don’t have sight of the full projections, neither the BFC plans nor LBH seem to imply that this is at all possible'What do you have sight of? Has anyone seen how the economics of the 910 flat development actually stack up, because I suspect there's smoke-screening going on as a way of avoiding a social housing component and pushing hounslow to approve 17 storey tower blocks.  I suspect there's going to be a lot more profit for the LBC owner that he might be letting on.

Lorne Gifford ● 4232d

Ahh, you see Darren that's where doing engineering and economics wins out over just playing with numbers. Big difference in unit price build costs between 5 stories and 17; something to do with the weight of those extra 12 stories I believe.  Also a big difference in selling price for a low rise development compared to jammed in tower blocks; something to do with space and actually being able to fit one or two trees in.15 mins is a completely comfortable walk for me and without wanting to stress the point too much is not having a bus the only thing you can think of?I can count off reasons for LR being stupid all day long.  I can count off reasons for the training ground not being useful on, err (not wanting to be too rude here), very few fingers.

Lorne Gifford ● 4232d

But more importantly, long term sustainability, through a stadium able to maximise matchday and non matchday income thus reducing the financial burden on the club of an outdated asset currently only useable for circa 24 days of the year and one which incurs significant annual losses.

Chris Tate ● 4232d

Progress...

Keith Iddon ● 4232d

Why do we need a new stadium, please?

Sarah Felstead ● 4232d

Lorne,Thank you for teaching me fundamental economics. My economics lecturers at university didn’t teach me with quite the same skill as you do.Please can you send us the breakdown of the development costs used in your business plan? Have you included the club/developer's administration, developer’s profit margin, planning permission, financing, professional services, demolition, construction of communal areas, tax etc...? Based on your figures, BFC should be able to sell 910 homes on LR for £364m (910x£400k) with costs of £91m (910x£100k). Allowing £70m for the stadium build, they would generate a profit of £203m. Although we don’t have sight of the full projections, neither the BFC plans nor LBH seem to imply that this is at all possible.    With this sort of potential profit to spend on players, maybe BFC should be looking to build a larger ground on LR for Premier League football? Your figures are based on complete guesswork, and totally inaccurate.As for the 2 train stations being a comfortable walk from Jersey road. Osterley (12 mins) and Hounslow East (15 mins) are both on the Piccadilly line.  You’ve already admitted that there are no busses, so how can this be better than Lionel Road? Are you trying to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes?

Darren Cushway ● 4233d

Not at all. I see nothing vitriolic in pointing out that your assertion that Jersey Road would provide a viable alternative is wrong, in the same way that I corrected your sensationalist posting about plague pits.I'm not seeking to subvert opinion on Lionel Road, I've been involved with enough major applications to realise that schemes of this magnitude will always polarise opinion  but I do feel it appropriate to correct inaccuracies where I see them which is what I've done.

Chris Tate ● 4233d

nope, but what is extraordinary is that the merest suggestion that Lionel Road is not suitable sparks such a whirlwind of vitriol. Why's that then? Is it that Lionel Road with a 20,000 seat stadium plus 910 apartments in enormously fat and ridiculously high tower blocks built over plague pits (possibly) and all jammed into a location that is already a bottleneck and set to become a devastating blood clot in one of West London's main arteries is faintly stupid?  Actually put like that, not faintly put plainly

Lorne Gifford ● 4233d

Lorne, with respect what's extraordinary is you suggesting your 5 minute back of a fag packet calculations hold more weight than a detailed financial appraisal which has been several years in the making. I've had some involvement in the LR scheme and I can tell you quite confidentially that the figures you're quoting are wildly inaccurate. The fact that Barratt pulled out of the original deal following concerns over viability should be indicator enough that Lionel Road is not the honey pot you claim it to be.

Chris Tate ● 4233d

The 333% return on investment you state is a missleading figure, as no doubt you know.  There is a big difference between building cost and selling cost, which is why your house insurance is for a rebuild amount substantially less than the market value.  You can build 200 flats and 100 townhouses for around £30m, and you can sell then at today's market prices for about £130m.  Griffin park is owned by BFC, Lionel Road is worth perhaps £10m if it only has permission for the maximum recommended density of 200 flats.  Agreed it's worth a lot more if you're allowed to build a stadium and 910 flats - that's why the developers are so keen on putting such a grotesque development squeezed into an inadequate area. So I missed the £10m to buy Lionel road in my original cost estimate - big deal.As to transport connections, as I have stated, there is a tube and 2 train stations in comfortable walking distance of the training ground and the roads far larger and less densely used than the bottleneck of Kew Bridge.  Granted there is no bus route, but are you really suggesting you wouldn't build a £70 million stadium simply because no one runs a bus there? Perhaps you would suggest to a bus company that they might like to run one (or two) buses past there on a Saturday afternoon.  Bus companies operate for profit so if the demand is there then the buses will run.Apologies if I teaching you some fundamental economics here but I really find it extraordinary that people are prepared to defend something that is so plainly stupid with equally stupid reasoning.Incidentally, Lionel Road isn't particularly near me, but I do drive over Kew Bridge quite a lot so I am well aware that traffic density is already exceeding capacity.  I can also see the new flats near McDonalds and the Steam Museum which I suspect will add to the traffic (feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong here). I also drive to and from Heathrow every once in a while, so know that the 8 mile run there can be a lot quicker than the 1 mile for me to cross into Kew.

Lorne Gifford ● 4233d

Lorne,So you honestly believe bfc can turn £30 million into £130 million? Can you tell me one housing developer that's able to turn a 333% ROI?Also, according to the planning docs and verified by LBH, they will need to build 910 homes to finance the stadium. According to your figures, this can be achieved with less that 1/3 of this? Again, according to the planning docs the stadium will cost £71m to build.  Based on this, please can you let us know how they can buy the land on Jersey rd and build the stadium for £70 million?Who agrees that jersey road has better public transport than Lionel Road?I understand that you don't want this stadium near you, but starting this inaccurate discussion is just silly.

Darren Cushway ● 4234d

Lorne, who's we, and no you haven't.

Mike Williams ● 4234d

There's probably a heliport in the Sultan's garden.

Guy Lambert ● 4234d

How is public transport there better than at Lionel Rd ?There is a tube within walking, a train station on site and 4 or 5 bus routes. Lionel Rd is also just off the A4 and the north circular and is on the main road into Brentford.I think it is only you who thinks the links are better.

Keith Iddon ● 4234d

sorry, it's Darren not Chris

Lorne Gifford ● 4234d

ChrisI'm afraid if you going to just throw in a random insult like clueless you're going to have to justify it.As for transport links then I believe we've already quite conclusively shown the Training Ground option is the superior choice.

Lorne Gifford ● 4234d

I've lived a large percentage of my life less than 10 mins walk from Osterley tube station and now live a few mins walk from lionel rd. I know all the sites being discussed on here very well.  Anyone even suggesting that either of the sites in Oserley is more suitable than Lionel road is talking utter rubbish. I cannot believe anyone honestly believes that building on green fields in an area of significantly inferior public transport links is a better idea than an industrial site with significantly better public transport links.Another thread fueled by the 'Lionel Road, not on my doorstep' brigade.And, as for the figures quoted in Lorne's initial post....clueless

Darren Cushway ● 4234d

Don't understand the middle paragraph.It costs more because it's on prime land?

Keith Iddon ● 4234d

They will only part finance the stadium for a very short time.Ultimately the investors and backers behind the Mr B will want their as indeed he may if fortunes change.They still have the site but there are other options to fund the stadium which is hugely overpriced compared to the cost of US and European new stadiums of much greater size all of which have huge parking and diversity facilities and are away from dense residential zones, not in the centre of them.

Anthony Waller ● 4234d

Some people don't seem to get it...the tower blocks will be paying for the stadium ultimately. Perhaps you could focus your energy on trying to stop them making a horlicks of the high st. rather than somewhere on the edge of town.

Keith Iddon ● 4234d

As an alternative... there is a vast open space across the road from Osterley Station.... the old London Transport Sports Ground... which could accommodate a stadium and provide extra car parking facilities for commuters using the Tube.No need for masses of Tower blocks...On the Great West Road too..And no need to add to road congestion at Kew Bridge or Chiswick Flyover.Think about it!PS: Close to the training ground too.

Jim Lawes ● 4234d

Osterley Tube station is about the same distance from the Jersey road site as Brentford is to Griffin Park.The surrounding roads are cleared for class 6 public transport vehicle use which allows double deck bus and coach use. ( All originally for Osterley House)The roads can cope with higher levels of sporadic traffic than Kew/ Gunnersbury can.Kew Gunnersbury is to have a local population increase of 14,000 with no infrastructure improvements.  The Lionel road development is not factored into that statistic.Lionel road stadium on it's own will be highly accessible, but with the encapsulating developments and complete lack of parking factored in it will be a complete white elephant and no better than Griffin Park.All this risk just for a handful of  Corporate boxes.A good design for rebuilding Griffin Park could easily solve these problems without any serious implications.Lionel Road could still be developed on a better more community building light industrial and residential scale and still fund rebuilding Griffin Park.That way at least the Pubs and small eateries will survive and retain Brentford's  unique world rating in Football !

Anthony Waller ● 4234d

Osterly Tube station is about the same distance from the Jersey road site as Brentford is to Griffin Park.The roads are cleared for class 6 public transport vehicle use which allows double deck bus use.The roads can cope with higher levels of sporadic traffic than Kew/ Gunnersbury can.Kew Gunnersbury is to have a local population increase of 14,000 with no infrastructure improvements.  The Lionel road development is not factored into that statistic.Lionel road stadium on it's own will be highly accessible, but with the encapsulating developments and complete lack of parking factored in it will be a complete white elephant and no better than Griffin Park.All this risk just for a handful of  Corporate boxes.A good design for rebuilding Griffin Park could easily solve these problems without any serious implications.Lionel Road could still be developed on a better more community building light industrial and residential scale and still fund rebuilding Griffin Park

Anthony Waller ● 4234d

err, tube station within 200m, 2 train stations each within half a mile, and the council will put on one or two bus routes if the demand is there.  Rather than look for negatives why not see this for what it is; win-win.  Great location for a stadium with plenty of space, surrounded on 3 sides by fields of cows and one side by houses hidden behind their own walls and drives.  The location has space for expansion when BFC make the Premier league and the development won't cripple a major arterial route for traffic at the Kew bridge pinch point. There's even a positive for planning permission; you just need to point out the number of councillors on the planning committee who live close by and suggest that since they have a vested interest they not be allowed to vote.  It'll be a done deal.You might not think it, but I am a Brentford supporter, regularly taking my 10 year old to games to try and turn him away from Chelsea FC and back to real football.  The thought of battling crowds at Lionel Road to get into a constrained stadium is not half as appealing as the beautiful stadium that could be built at the training ground.

Lorne Gifford ● 4234d

Public transport Lorne, any of it.

Chris Tate ● 4234d

Yes Chris, I've been there and I can happily report there is all the space in the world for infrastructure.  What exactly is it that you need that won't fit at the training ground but will fit into Lionel Road?

Lorne Gifford ● 4234d

A minor insignificant detail I know Lorne, but perhaps the fact the infrastructure around the site couldn't accommodate 2000 fans never mind 20,000 may have played a part when this wonderful alternative location was so inexplicably overlooked by BFC and Hounslow Council ? Have you actually visited the training ground at Jersey Road ? I strongly suspect not.

Chris Tate ● 4234d

So Hounslow Planning Committee didn't even entertain the idea of what appears to now be the eminently perfect site; the training grounds.  Not that it would in anyway influence their thoughts, but I wonder if any of them live in the Osterley area?

Lorne Gifford ● 4234d

The Brentford FC Training Ground is ON Jersey Road...but hidden by hedgerows... and forms part of the buffer zone around Osterley Park.  It's an upmarket area now mainly occupiedby Indian families. (I lived there for 40+ years)On the extreme east side.... thefarmland borders the Sultan Of Brunei's estate.Interestingly the QPR Football Club want to establish theirtraining ground at Warren Farm..opposite the Sultan's Avery Farm heavily guarded home...mostly  occupied by his Princesses.. Whether these families want Bees supporters and their opponents wondering around Osterely streets from the nearby Osterley Station, or from local bus stops at Lampton Corner or Heston Road is another matter. But at least those Hounslow Councillorswho are poorly knowledgeable about Carville Hall Parks and Lionel Road will have a better understanding of the local Osterley geography!Rebuild at Griffin Park I'd say.

Jim Lawes ● 4234d

Do you think one bus route would be enough?

Keith Iddon ● 4235d

Hello JohnBeing called Lorna doesn’t particularly bother me as it’s happened most of my life.  I never been called a fruitcake or a fantasist though so I though I'd better respond to each of your comments:‘The Osterley training ground is on Green Belt land’The Osterley training ground doesn't form any part of what a reasonable person would refer to as a ‘green belt’.  It is just a label, a piece of red tape, and like all pieces of red tape it can be changed.  Why don’t you call it an enabling stadium - that would help.‘.. It is, in fact, off Jersey Road. Public transport to this location is non-existent….’A bus route can be run to the grounds to cure the non-existent public transport - duh‘…, and the local roads are not capable of being developed to cope with the traffic peaks associated with Saturday games.’Local roads are the 3 lane A4 and similarly wide M4, both of which are a damn site bigger than the single lanes running around Kew Bridge.  A self defeating objection then.‘Hounslow Council considered a number of possible locations with Brentford FC. The training ground was never in the frame.’If it wasn't then there is an enormous gap in Hounslow Council’s ability to actually do anything properly so perhaps they should start on the process afresh and try and do it correctly.I note though that you haven’t objected to a single one of the half dozen very unflattering adjectives I used to describe the current development.  So in response to fruitcake I’d like to counter with soggy cream sponge.

Lorne Gifford ● 4235d

I don't know anyone who is opposed to the site at Lionel Road being used for a stadium. Equally I don't know anyone who is for the development that will encapsulate it.I thought the whole idea initially was to have a versatile stadium that could have a diversity of usage.What has been approved is simply a 21st century version of  the 19th century Griffin Park with the same inherent problems.No adequate parking and surrounded by residences.What's to stop the future residents of the new high density developments putting the block on any of the proposed activities?As for Griffin Park, the town houses is already the preferred option locally.What astonished me was hearing that 3 of the voting councillors were so well read on the issue that they thought the site was where Carville Hall Park is currently situated.So Councillors Curran Cadbury and Co. You should hang your heads in shame for removing yourselves so late in the day.Thoroughly incompetent and you should all resign.

Raymond Havelock ● 4235d

Apologies - Lorne

John Connelly ● 4235d

Fruitcakes who do not like the Lionel Road proposal should stop clutching at straws.The Osterley training ground is on Green Belt land. It is, in fact, off Jersey Road. Public transport to this location is non-existent, and the local roads are not capable of being developed to cope with the traffic peaks associated with Saturday games. In contrast, Lionel Road is close to numerous bus routes, trains and tube trains, the North Circular and the M4. The density of the associated development formed the main basis for objection and continues to do so. This will be considered by Boris when he deals with the reference from Hounslow Council.It is clear, Lorna, that you have little or no knowledge of planning legislation. Hounslow Council considered a number of possible locations with Brentford FC. The training ground was never in the frame. If you wish to continue to object to Lionel Road you would serve your cause better by reasoned argument, not fantasy.

John Connelly ● 4235d

Griffin Park, not Lionel Road - my mistake for typing as I think

Lorne Gifford ● 4235d

I'm glad you objected Iain, and perhaps once the enabling development plan for Dead Man's Graves has been firmly kicked into touch the value of the land will revert to its realistic amount - as a potential development site for around 200 flats, with S106 provision (whatever that is).  The trouble is that enormously fat 17 storey tower blocks squeezed onto such an inadequately small site will not only be offensively grotesque, but they will also set the precedent for exactly the same thing to happen at the former Lionel Road stadium.  Anyone would hazard a guess that the Brentford FC owner, far from being the benign money bags he is portrayed as, is actually gambling on making a financial killing at the expense of everyone who lives in Brentford.  It may be he comes from Brentford but would you like to know where he lives now - no where remotely close to it!

Lorne Gifford ● 4235d

Brentford FC don't own the land at Dead Man's Graves either, so your point is what exactly Adam?

Lorne Gifford ● 4235d

Not sure I can agree that the land cost is a minor detail.... those nice people at Barretts will have worked out the sale cost on the likely number of units to be developed. With approved LA planning (subject to Sir Edward Lister, AKA Boris Planning supremo) for 900 odd homes that value is now fixed. Even if the stadium shifted to Osterly the tower blocks would still happen. In fact there would be more as the stadium site would be available. BTW I objected to the development as too high, too dense and inadequate S106, but the deed is now done....

Iain Muir ● 4235d

Westfields FC?

Paul Scullion ● 4235d

The Football Club do not own the land where the training ground resides, it is leased and as far as I know isn't for sale.

Adam Hobbs ● 4235d

Minor details?

Keith Iddon ● 4235d

those are just minor details Iain.  The idea is sound and it has far fewer drawbacks than the existing proposals.

Lorne Gifford ● 4235d

They could put in a bid for Loftus Rd now that QPR are going back home.

Keith Iddon ● 4235d

How about a ground share elsewhere?  Perhaps we could be renamed MK Bees?  That should keep the Chiswick lot happy.

Paul Scullion ● 4235d

Isn't it about % of local people who complain not the number? They may have considered your plan already. It all sounds too simple.

Keith Iddon ● 4235d

Nice thinking....but..... I doubt you would get 100 town houses on Griffin Park and you do not seem to have included the land cost for the Lionel Rd site, purchased from Barretts, don't know how much for.......... Plus if the new stadium is on the training ground, where do they train in the future. In the new London Plan density levels are increasing and developers are building to the new levels.

Iain Muir ● 4235d

Less people in Osterley than Brentford+Chiswick+Kew so the balance of objections favours an Osterly location.  And there would be enough space for all those tree's that the developer is keen on pretending would be grown in the shadow of the 17 storey towerblocks he wants to build on the Dead Man's Graves site.

Lorne Gifford ● 4235d

Probably everyone in Osterley.

Keith Iddon ● 4235d