Forum Topic

Hounslow Council – Is it a partnership and does it work?

Taking on board some of the comments being made on the 'Is it in the air thread' - about local issues, and in particular Paul’s comment about this forum  - I have started this thread.I considered a 'lets make a difference this year', linked to the title, but I am personally given (from experience) to thinking that I don’t really don't feel we can – and also that I don’t think anyone in the decision making process ( with the clout ) cares a hoot!  Am I wrong?I don’t feel that my contacts with ‘the suits’ at the Council have been treated as a positive contact from somebody within a partnership.  I have always tried to be positive and give a balanced argument when talking to them but I get the impression I may have got further had I screamed and shouted and held up a banner in front of the Chief Executives nose as he entered the Civic Centre?  There is a lot of goodwill and enthusiasm amongst people in the Borough to make some effective changes and we frequently hear from OUR Councillors that they want to change or alter or amend things but have their hands tied.  Is this because the processes aren’t in place to value and consider individual voices?Is it about time we worked out a way of harnessing this goodwill and enthusiasm to agree what we want and expect of OUR Borough?  CAN we harness it?  Is it worth harnessing?  Or should we just leave it all ticking over year in year out whilst we pay the Policymakers to play with their desk tidies?  Should we start by agreeing whether the Council should be a partnership and who should be the voices within this partnership?  What do you think?

Sarah Felstead ● 7432d42 Comments

For some time I felt I had been neglecting this topic of Sarah's...and so tonight I thought I'd give it a GO..read it all again in one undivided session..and see if I can fully understand what Sarah is getting at.I've always found the Title of the heading a bit puzzling..and the messages a tough read. The only time it all really flowed and I could understand the drift was Sarah's posting on 14/02/05 at 14.34 when she introduced a paragraph entitled "part of an example letter"One can understand Sarah's frustrations at things that are going on around her...and I'm sure she has a valid case to be concerned, annoyed and possibly angry with what she sees and hears.  Fortunately Gareth and Phil and others have been able to offer support and advice to Sarah. I'm not sure which local Councillors she has contacted..it wasn't clear...referring to them as 365'ers etc.Without wishing to be rude ..or to upset a stalwart Brentford Forum poster...I would like to suggest that a little more keyboard clarity ..on occasions..would perhaps help our understanding of the issues..and encourage us to more positively help.The "Paving slabs" thread has been a cause of much concern and the publication of photos has brought the seriousness home to us much more clearly. On that subject ..I have more correspondence and threads to look through. Our thoughts and sympathies are with Sarah and family about the unpleasant injury..and a "please get well soon message" is conveyed herewith.Not sure why I have written all the above..but it must have been on my mind!

Jim Lawes ● 7369d

If you haven't read the paving slab thread, my 83 year old Mother-in-law fell on these slabs outside our house, and has been on a trip to Casualty.  We are all in shock because of the potential injuries, she could have incurred.  Her face is an absolute mess.  She is staying with us (a visitor to the Borough) because her husband is in hospital having suffered a stroke.  He is in recovery and cannot speak, so what he will make of her face when she next visits him, we have yet to see.So.Adam Beamish.You said that you thought I was making negative comments about your department.  Are you shocked at the experiences I have encountered?  Or do you think it is typical of the experiences any ratepayer can experience, but normally we don’t have an avenue to compare notes or talk about it?Lets face it, the Council complaints procedure isn’t fully active is it?  Or is it a selective complaints procedure and as nobody has actually been killed on the street, the complaints system will not actually kick in yet?  How many points does and elderly lady with her glasses smashed into her face, count for?  Does anyone actually know?  Maybe somebody could publicly announce the points system, so we can judge the operational bench marks?  Go on, don’t be shy chaps.You also said that you didn't want to respond on the forum.Forgive me, if this sounds a little harsh, but please excuse me as I am pretty fed up.  Angry even.  Shocked and stressed.  My reasoning says that, if you are an employee of my Council (I consider that I pay Hounslow Council a great deal of money, so I should have some clout) and you are a part of an openly and fairly run organisation, then posting on a forum such as this, is no different than giving a speech, on the services you operate/are in charge of.  You might be pleasantly surprised in the responses you get, as most people are crying out for the system to work  So, would you please find some method of contacting me to tell me why I have not had any reasonable responses and actions to the many 'complaints' I have been forced to make to the negative way in which the Fortress has responded to my contacting them.  I deduce (and I may be wrong) but you suggest that some of these negative responses are sourced in your department?

Sarah Felstead ● 7373d

SarahUnder planning law an application has to be decided on its individual merits subject to what is and is not a material consideration.  As such anything relating to the health and safety measures (or lack of them) employed by the builder would not be taken into account.  A planning authority can however impose any conditions which it sees fit when approving an application, failure to comply with which will, theoretically at least, result in action being taken against the offender.There is no law against constructing a building first and seeking planning permission retrospectively, however this is a risky business for the applicant because if permission is refused it has to be demolished again.  Again theoretically, no consideration should be given to the impracticality of demolition nor the inconvenience caused to the applicant.If you are objecting to a proposed development then you should ensure that your objections are registered with the planning authority in good time and double check to be certain that they have been received.  You then have the option of making representations to the Area Committee, which is where the application will then be considered.The council does have policies and guidelines but - once again theoretically - each case is considered on its individual merits without regard to precedent.  Objections to one proposed development would not ordinarily be considered in respect of a future application for another, irrespective of any similarities involved.If you need any advice on the procedures involved Sarah, please feel free to get in touch.  However as a member of the Area Committee which may end up making the decision I could not get involved in or comment upon the application or the objection itself.Hope this helps.

Phil Andrews ● 7399d

Q  When objection letters are received concerning an application for development, if they throw up other questions concerning the area as a whole, or other issues such as health & Safety considerations; are they still filed under the ‘one application address’ or are the points passed on for general consideration, to hopefully advance policies and procedures in general?There are lots of points people are making about this part of Isleworth and working practices.  People are hoping these points will be actively considered to bring back a standard of building practises.Q How many of the comments in the example letter I have copied below, are locked into the development of one property?Q What about developments being undertaken at the present time?  What about some positive common sense ‘base-line’ policies to support the area, in future planning applications?  Standards observed by everyone, and overseen and enforced by our Tax landlords (Hounslow Council).Part of an example letter >>>.I am writing to voice some of my concerns about the proposed development.  (3 bed house into 7 bed + house; plus huge bungalow in the back garden)Although I am not directly affected by the proposals I am very uneasy about some of the possible consequences.  This part of Isleworth was established in the 1920's and 1930's by a local builder, who fortunately had the integrity and skill to create a very pleasant environment for the local community and Isleworth in general.I am aware of the great pressure on land in  Greater London so that house extensions have become increasingly common,  However, environmental concerns need to be considered for a developers 'free for all' would be very undesirable.During the past decade there has been a significant increase in the number of extensions in this area.  Some have been well done but others have been less successful.  There has been also an increase in the use of builders who arrive in unmarked vans and whose workforce may speak little or no English and may have at best fleeting knowledge of UK building regulations.  As I know from personal experience from a neighbours extension when problems arise it can be very difficult for an individual to secure redress and can lead to much bad feeling between neighbours who have hitherto lived in harmony.I have witnessed over the past year working practises which are frankly dangerous e.g. inadequate scaffolding for workmen installing a new roof, men working on a chimney stack without even a roofing ladder for safe access, men demolishing an old roof by a process which I believe is known as 'bombing'.  I have seen skips in the road without lights at night and building materials left for days on pavements.  Sometimes work has gone on for seven days a week so that the neighbours have no respite from the noise of building.  It appears that many of these workers are simply being exploited to keep down costs.  I realise many of these concerns are the province of HSE but surely the Council needs to be aware of what is happening?Sadly some owners/developers appear motivated simply by greed and appear to have no regard whatsoever for community values.  In these circumstances one vital defence against undesirable developments is the planning process and the will of the Council to enforce it.It is a matter of concern that some owners/developers seem to believe that by pre-emptive measures they can 'get around' the planning process - that if they go ahead with an unauthorised structure the chances are they will get away with it.  If such a notion is allowed to gain currency it will surely undermine the whole idea of planning procedures and discriminate against those honest enough to stick to the rules.I think that these proposals should be rejected because of the proposed scale of the extension, particularly its height and the undesirable impact on neighbouring properties.  I believe the concept of a bungalow in the garden would be detrimental on environment grounds.I believe that accepting the proposals would give the green light for similar developments in the future.  I hope the council will not acquiesce in a process which, in a decade or two, could see the transformation of a very pleasant area in Isleworth to an over crowded and environmentally degraded zone for that would be social regression not progress.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I have changed a few personal references in the copying of this letter.

Sarah Felstead ● 7399d

“The enforcement process is the most expensive and time consuming and that's how loopholes come into play.”Common sense – just what we expect from you Gareth!  Just shows that there is sense in those old proverbs, don’t you think?  …a stitch in time saves 9.  In order to do the saving stitch, one has to be aware of the problem.This is why I got very excited a few years ago when we were told that there were going to be a string of people employed across the Borough on street scene work.  They were going to be named and with responsibilities for their/our area.  That fizzled out very quickly.I keep hearing stories of people saying that the process is corrupt.  I don’t know what they mean by that, and I didn’t start to delve.  The builder started the concept with a few loudly voiced notions about favours.  I can take that or leave it because again you would have to tie down what ‘that’ means, and there are cross cultural views on this, which would take a page to analyse (and I am just an untrained observer).  The blanket one might be that a person from one cultural background, asking an opinion from a Cllr, thinks that by answering that the Cllr is in favour of being friendly towards them, and is taking their side?  They don’t realise that the answer the Cllr gave is impartial, and would be general in the same way to the other party involved?  As I said, I am an observer, and this is a possible perception, I have formed.The supporting factor in the process is the standing of the process itself.  As you say, it is the loopholes which allow people to get away with things, and if they use them as a standard way of working, which is unchecked, then these can be construed as discriminatory if they work to one parties advantage?  Unchecked then they are blatantly unfair?One story I heard yesterday, is of a lady who rang the planning dept to complain about one of these big bungalows which had apparently broken the guidelines in size, proximity to the boundary, whatever.  This is hearsay so I don’t know, but the hearsay comes from a very responsible member of the community and it was the neighbour who told him the story as it was happening.  When she rang to complain she was told she was being racist.  She then felt that she had to justify where she was coming from, and filled in gaps as to why she couldn’t be racist.  She was told again that they didn’t matter, she was still racist.  Stories like this don’t help the natural binding together of a community.Surely the factors which should have come into play, rather than making personal comments, would be to check it out and listen to the views of the neighbour, who is asking what is going on, because it affects her property?  Maybe I am too naïve.What can we expect in this partnership when approaching the Council with a problem, concern or an idea?  I know my experience, and I keep saying I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW IT ALL WORKS… or maybe we have an inkling of how it should work, and the confusion is born from the evidence that it isn’t working?  … and it isn’t working because the expectations of what people want/need are not covered by what can be reasonable delivered?My ‘one man and his bike’ hasn’t come back to see me (I think that is on the pavement thread).The e-mail I received from within the fortress, hasn’t been followed through.  It was a Friday, and in my reckoning Friday is a naff day to do anything important.  I speak from a considerable experience of Managers who left the serious personnel stuff to a Friday, then took the day off leaving somebody else to do it for them.  If I had anything to do with the personnel hand book, I would say one of the first rules is not to treat Friday as a ‘serious’ day.  So it is possible he was suffering from end of the week depression, and regretted e-mailing me, by Monday?The pavement outside this house has again been ‘mashed’.  After a huge delivery truck yesterday (it had a big grab hook on the back) the workers, realising the state it left the pavement, carefully placed a pallet over the top of the worst bit, and added two cones to each end of the pavement where their work has been going on.  I really don’t think they are being funny, I really think that they are working at their best and don’t realise that there is a likelihood that somebody might fall over the pallet or cones in the dark.  Who is it that should explain how we would like them to work and why?  If there were a named builder in charge then everyone could expect them to be responsible for the methods of working – including health and safety issues for the workers.

Sarah Felstead ● 7402d

I have had an e-mail from somebody at the Civic Centre.They have asked that we talk and that we don't do this publicly.  I am very happy to talk.  I do a great tour of my locality and can probably sort out a short or a full version, both are depressingly scenic.  Whichever is needed to convince, really.The obvious reason for doing this is to hopefully resolve some issues mainly about communication from "li'le 'ole tax payer me, to the people marching around with my money", well, that is my thinking, anyway.You say that you have read the forum, so you might have gathered some insight into where I am coming from.  Maybe somewhere along the line it has occurred to you that I am angry with the services and the situation?I will happily talk.I will happily do so away from the forum.I will need to know what your job 'means' and where your responsibilities lie, and what you think you are going to achieve by talking to me.  Remember I have been told by lots of people working at the Civic centre on a number of occasions that the departments do not inter-communicate.You suggest there are particular things I have said that you wish to discuss, perhaps you could outline them so we can narrow down the points of the conversation, in advance. I would like you to come to talk to me openly with RESOLVE being the order of the day.  Resolve in this case should include the learning experience of what has gone on, to ensure you put measures into play, that mean it doesn’t carry on.You may e-mail me directly with some times you are free.Regards,

Sarah Felstead ● 7409d

This part of the partnership is proving very interesting, to me.  Some words spring to mind, skulduggery is a good one.  If you are in the know, the SKY might be the limit - if you are not, and are on the receiving end of Bob and his non-English-speaking-team-of-builders, then people move out and clear the area!Hounslow's name has cropped up a number of times attached to the words very lenient or lax in enforcement of planning regulations.Hounslow 'isn't considered' very highly anyway.Peoples expectations of the process are a bit fuzzy here and because of that they formulate their opinions from a personal I WANT or need point of view.  Is fast response to a problem the non-paid Councillors job in this partnership? It appears that way at present?  Explanations about what can and can't be done are also left to the Councillor too.  Don't-you-just-find that the answers you get are much better explained by your local 365-er who has a much better grasp of people skills and what is needed to be done to problem solve and help people get back to living their lives.  Which is often the essence of the problem.Does anyone at the Council evaluate the questions/problems the 365-ers deal with, in order to see if Council services can move forward?  I have had visions of the typical 365-ers house at several points.  It has to be drawn with a fireman’s pole running from the bedroom window into the street outside.  Some Councillors grease theirs so that they can slide down it more quickly and Tax payers can reassuringly check for grease marks to determine whether their Councillor is serious about their job ...  Crumbs, I hope you are following this. A lot of peoples 'wants' are very reasonable but there isn't anything leaping out to show people what they can expect.  Maybe we have found a use for HM magazine chaps?  I haven't seen it this issue but somebody suggested on the forum that the contact points are included for your 365 service.The people to help in advancing front line services are the people involved – so same question as above about evaluation – what are the front line officials repeatedly asked, and what would they like to respond to, but can’t?  The live bits of policy are the ones in use.Westminster (I have a friend who is developing a property near to Gerry's supermarket, Harrods) they are not allowed to lift a spanner if it has not been vetted and approved.  Inspectors pop up randomly to check too, so that keeps the developers on their toes.  This works and everyone knows where they stand. Comments about Richmond are coming through favourably.  Instead of sending contingents of people out on appreciation trips to foreign climes, can't we just nip into the local councils around London and ask them how they their handle service 'issues and processes' and evaluate the good and poor working practices of each?  Might leave the good people living here and being a part of the area, a bit more supported in their own homes?  At least they would then know where they stand.In this area, people often don't realise they can write and make a difference about planning issues.  Oh, yes they get a letter, maybe, but they have lots of responses to it.  Some genuinely think that the Council doesn't care about the area.  Some think that they should reply and that the officials will then come out and see what they mean., and want them to come out.  Others are concerned that if they do write, they will then be drawn into arguing what they have written, with the Council, so they don’t want to get involved.  Some are wary about putting their name to an opinion in case there is a back lash, and they just want to get on with their lives.These are real responses which I have heard in the last few days.  There must be many more. One elderly couple who have been sandwiched behind one of the typical ‘developments’ for a very long time (none of these appear to be anything other than very disruptive and lengthy) and who will be affected by more of these types of development, very warily said to me that they wouldn’t be writing.  When they realised they could say they were fed up, and their other feelings about the shoddy state of the area , and very noisy building work (which must have turned their lives upside down) they have been bouncing around say we have written too!There comes a point when these developers appear to try and make as much noise as they can?  I kind've figure this to be one of the loopholes.  A noise pack says you have to note all the noises and disruptions down.  HA - HA - HA is what I say to that.  By then the noise has finished, and this process decrees you have to live with it and through it.  HA - HA - HA.The working hours are supposed to be 8.am to 6pm Mon to Friday.  Round here the skip lorries zoom up and down at nearer to 7am.  Summer evenings and you can expect casual workmen sitting on the tops of roofs, throwing single tiles off the roof and into the skip, by hand.  The one further along this street last year got quite a tune going as he landed them into an empty skip.  The occasional one which hit the road, or pavement was followed by a shout.  Imagine a darts match and it goes off the board at an important point in the match.  Well imagine now ordinary people living quietly with young children, trying to get them off to bed.  Trying to get into the house safely can be a nightmare!  School children walking along the road - some types of people get singled out more readily than others.  My sons Sri-Lankan friend gets regular racist abuse from the Indian builders opposite.  My husband asked the east European builders at the back of us to stop one summer evening when he was outside and the planes and stopped too, and was threatened with a you come around here and say that.  I went to talk to a builder about the same thing a few months before and suddenly the builder couldn’t speak English.  I was about to go and find somebody who could undermine that, and he ‘didn't know about finishing at 6.00 pm’.  The story kept changing, so he did know.  He knew he could get away with it, and as his job was a short one, he carried on over the weekend too.  He had finished by Monday at 8.45 am.

Sarah Felstead ● 7409d

The drilling against the side of the neighbours house is vibrating through their house (I have been in there!) and their poor children are frightened stiff.I find it strange that there doesn't appear to be a way of agreeing a 'time of working'  for work such as this, so that it doesn't, for instance, coincide with children’s sleep patterns.  If the neighbours work at the hospital on night duty (quite a lot of midwives and nurses in this area) they might get a chance to have some kip - or even go out.If there was an agreement with the noise, when using a drill you could possibly make it for a short specified period.  Oh, crumbs, yes, Mr developer (who most often doesn’t live there) that might mean you doing the job over a longer period.  You could balance that into the whole work pattern, couldn't you, if you knew from the outset you had to consider other people?Is there a partner who could tell you this, perhaps as a part of the 'negotiated' planning process?  Unless you are told you (possibly) won't stop and consider it, as it might complicate your costs.  Blow the residents of the Borough and noise pollution.Darn neighbours - who would have them, nothing but trouble and getting in the way of a guy making his living?As far as any support from the Civic centre?  A message has been relayed back that it isn't important or a priority for anyone to respond to because it is a civil matter.  So perhaps I am wrong in considering any partnership with the Council here?  There simply isn't one in response to the planning process and noise, and what is happening here is nothing to do with them.  Or have I got this wrong?  What?  oh yes, there is a noise complaint procedure which somebody could send out to you if you ring another number, but you have to complete a record of the noise over a couple of weeks and then send in for consideration.  Oh, yes, I forgot.Puh - leese.

Sarah Felstead ● 7413d

VanessaThank you for your posting.I agree that we need to go through the due process of democracy and that MP’s and Councillors are there by mandate to represent us. However, my point is that democracy could, and indeed should, be expanded upon for the greater good of us all. We know that MP’s and Councillors are often under a great deal of pressure to set levels of council tax which many within the electorate will be unhappy with subsequent to the council tax levels having been set. There are often very hard decisions that have to be taken on the funding of services provided by the local authority.  The expectations of the electorate are increasing year on year, and quite rightly so too. Local authorities should be more transparent and the electorate should have faith that the services supplied by their local authority are meeting their expectations. However, the local authority should be able to prove that the services provided meet the needs of the electorate first, not just assume that they do so. The government appear to be keen to expand on their Best Value initiative, the cornerstones of which are to challenge services, compare services, consult on services and to compete on services. Yet without the local authority taking on the challenge of looking at the services it provides to establish if the services do indeed provide value for money by comparing options and competing, how can the local authority be fully aware that the services it provides do indeed meet the expectations of those it provides services to, it’s customers? It is all well and good for councillors being lead by senior officers of the local authority on funding levels needed to provide the services, but only if the senior officers can prove conclusively to the councillors that the services they are asking to be supported, can be fully justified. Many local authorities across the country are already consulting with residents and business users on council tax levels. I can see the advantage in local authorities entering into well thought out and well planned consultation among residents and business users in the process of setting council tax levels. As we know, local authorities fund expenditure on services through a combination of council tax receipts, government grants including redistributed business rates and charges for using services. As the local authority it should be possible ahead of council tax levels being set, to clearly identify to the electorate where funding comes from and where it is intended to be spent. I would suggest that there are many among us who are interested in hearing where the revenue from parking charges and parking fines is spent. If the electorate were aware of the limitations of the balance of funding and the cost of providing the services they receive, the electorate might have more realistic expectations, which the local authority can meet or indeed, may even exceed.In July 2004, Local Government Minister Nick Raynsford announced an independent inquiry into ways of making the council tax system fairer. Following the inquiry a report was released which concluded that council tax should stay but should be reformed. The report also pointed out that there are strong arguments for shifting the balance of funding towards more local funding – but only if the methods for doing this were desirable and feasible. I would suggest that the only fair way of doing this is by local authorities realising that council tax is a local tax, therefore it is only fair that locals should have a say in how their council tax is to be spent.

Gareth Evans ● 7414d

I understand that the mini digger went on most of the afternoon as did the banging from inside the house, which could be heard along the street.At around 1.30pm with the existing extension on the house next door shaking (child inside playing as the wall was 'moving') they stopped the drilling after being asked to.  The developers have made it clear that they will be back tomorrow.The contacts to the Civic Centre are met with there is nobody available even to seek some advice from.  Not even a method of contacting a duty planning representative by mobile.There appears to be some sort of urgency in doing the digging and foundations, is this because the developers know if the structure is up, it will be allowed to stay up?What advice is given to near neighbours, from sharing the pitfalls and planning’s knowledge of what neighbours should look out for, as a part of the partnership?For instance are neighbours told about party wall legislation?  Most people don't know anything about building work, and hope that somebody is checking what is going on, and that what is being done is allowable.  Is that not part of the service when an application is made?  If not, should that not be a part of the partnership service?>>>>> I think I related somewhere else how ANOTHER builder had openly said that he knew if the permission was for, say, 6', if he built out say, 7' 6" the council would be very unhappy but they wouldn't tell him to take it down through enforcement, but if he did 7' 10" they would.  I can't remember the exact figures but he appeared to know exactly what the footing on a plan would translate into, accurately in practice.Didn't the Firestones saga happen over a weekend too?  If so, haven't we learnt anything from that?

Sarah Felstead ● 7415d