Forum Topic

A new secondary school for Brentford

Hounslow primary and secondary head teachers are writing a bid for a new secondary free school which will be mixed, multi-faith and inclusive. At the moment there isn't a mixed secondary school between Chiswick and central Hounslow. What are your views? Is it needed and will the community support it? This is the last round of free school applications before the General Election - we believe that we urgently need this school as the numbers in local primary schools are soaring.

Roger Shortt ● 4260d83 Comments

Roger, are you or the council lobbying Labour to reverse this nonsense?  Now that Gove's been sacked it's clear that his reforms do not carry widespread public support and it would be in Labour's interest to return to a sensible system for planning school places rather than this total nonsense you're having to go through.

Thomas Barry ● 4215d

Good question Trudie. Hounslow needs 3 new secondary schools bu 2020 and the only was to get funding is via the "free school" route.  So basically communities are expected to do it themselves by getting together an application to open a free school or the local council invites an academy chain to open a new school. In the first case the DfE buys the site.  The problem is that councils do not have the money to buy sites at the moment and there is very limited space available anyway.

Roger Shortt ● 4216d

where are they all supposed to go?

Trudie Fuller ● 4216d

So here's another update for you all - we have 332 expressions of interest from current Year 2 and Year 3 families - resulting in 172 year 2s and 154 year 3s.  Summer holidays are nearly here and we will then have all of September to get even more of our target group of families signing up.

Roger Shortt ● 4217d

Ha ha

Bob Crongle ● 4217d

And you are a twat.

Keith Iddon ● 4217d

You're a twit

Bob Crongle ● 4217d

An unashamed bump to 'demote' the latest wild ramblings of Shifty Ifti from the front page in order that we can focus on local topics.Apologies if this actions upsets anyone (Ifti excepted).

Nigel Brooks ● 4217d

A London report out today indicates that we will need an additional 15,000 school places by 2017 and that there will be a crisis in secondary school places.  We really do need this school in Brentford and Isleworth.  Please visit hipeduction.org.uk and register your support, particularly if you have children in years 2 or 3. Your support is vital

Roger Shortt ● 4219d

Gove has gone - off to be Chief Whip! But still Idiot Duncan Smith survives.

Vanessa Smith ● 4220d

Gove has gone - off to be Chief Whip!

Vanessa Smith ● 4220d

Just to keep you all up to date - after a parents event at Worple Primary in Isleworth we now have over 280 families who have expressed an interest in our school. And of course everyone is asking where it will be based!

Roger Shortt ● 4221d

Or like this?

Keith Iddon ● 4223d

Just to keep everybody up to date, following Isleworth Town school's fantastic school fair we now have more that 250 families signing up for the school.  There is so much interest and real concern about places for current Year 3 pupils.

Roger Shortt ● 4223d

True, very true, but did he hear what was being said? I guess only time will tell.

Vanessa Smith ● 4225d

I know but at least he came and gave us some time and got his sidekicks to take notes - one can but try!

Roger Shortt ● 4226d

Roger you have more faith in Mr. Gove than I have!

Vanessa Smith ● 4227d

Michael Gove came and visited the area last week and met a couple of secondary head teachers. He took notes so hopefully understands the importance of us being successful in applying to open this new secondary school.

Roger Shortt ● 4227d

Just to let people interested in this thread know that we have now 160 families interested in this proposed school. They all talk about the need for a mixed non-denominational school in the area and many say that they have been campaigning about this for years. We have also heard from people wishing us good wishes but saying that it is saying too late for their children.

Roger Shortt ● 4231d

Just to keep everybody up to date - we have nearly 150 families expressing an interest in the school and many of them are quoting a lack of a mixed non-denominational school in the area.  A number regret that the only way to establish one is via the free school route but are willing to support the project as it is very unlikely that the local authority would ever have the funding to do so. Upwards and onwards.

Roger Shortt ● 4236d

Took a bit of finding but this is the link to the Ealing consultation document.http://www.ealing.gov.uk/downloads/download/2707/planning_for_schools_dpd

Nigel Brooks ● 4241d

Yes, the old King Fahad site would be the obvious choice.I can't get my head around why, if there is such a demand for a school in the area, Ealing Council don't snap up the site and build one. Would it have something to do with the 'shed loads' of cash that the DfE is throwing at Gove's pet project and those willing to set up an (anything but) Free School but not at LEAs?

Nigel Brooks ● 4245d

For one view of a Free school in action follow this link http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/wlfs-what-head-was-up-to.html

Nigel Brooks ● 4245d

On the recent messages.  Rivers Academy is the school that is not a member of the Hounslow Education Improvement Partnership (EIP). Yes, I understand that The Green School will be applying again in October. Actually we will need more secondary spaces so now the need is indeed more acute. In October it looks like both applications will be going in at the same time and this will be the last round of applications before the election. We may still then face a lack of funding coming in but any other route than the free school projects.

Roger Shortt ● 4245d

'All must have prizes' culture lives at the DfE!

Thomas Barry ● 4245d

"I understand that the proposed Ealing Fields Free School have identified sites in south Ealing (which will have some benefit to pupils in Brentford) but are keeping the exact location 'secret'"They were looking at King Fahd's school, weren't they?  EFHS is odd, though, it's basically the governors at Little Ealing primary doing their own secondary, blissfully ignorant of the fact that the demand isn't there, it's in Hanwell, north Ealing and Acton, as Nigel says.Increasingly it appears that the burden of site location and procurement is falling on the EFA, a government quango, rather than FS groups - possibly a realisation that the latter idea doesn't really work properly.I haven't finished reading the Ealing report yet, actually - a couple of the sites would be in scope for Brentford/Isleworth, such as at Boston Manor and Northfields, but only tangentially.

Thomas Barry ● 4245d

They have however been 'encouraged to re-apply'.

Nigel Brooks ● 4245d

The Ealing report was comprehensive (no pun intended) and reviewed both 'brownfield' sites for new schools and the expansion of existing schools.I simply cannot find the link to the report on the ealing.gov website.The mood appears to be for expansion and a number of secondary schools (Elthorne and Brentside among them) have early consultation papers out for significant expansion by 2 or 3 FE. This doesn't however address the need for increased facilities in the west or east of the borough and part of the brownfield site at 'Southall gas works' may form part of the s.106 requirement for whoever develops the site for new homes.I understand that the proposed Ealing Fields Free School have identified sites in south Ealing (which will have some benefit to pupils in Brentford) but are keeping the exact location 'secret' for obvious reasons until negotiations for its acquisition are complete.I can't find anything of similar detail on the LBH website.

Nigel Brooks ● 4245d

If my memory serves I think it could be Rivers formerly Longford.

Vanessa Smith ● 4245d

Interesting, thanks.Roger/Vanessa - do we know which Hounslow secondary is the one outside the EIP?  There's a piece by Tony Ryan on the CS website which mentions it, and his role in the Brentford plans:http://www.chiswickschool.org/news/?pid=3&nid=2&storyid=442

Thomas Barry ● 4245d

Yes, The Green School's application to open a boys school has been refused, perhaps some common sense has prevailed?

Vanessa Smith ● 4245d

Interesting - do we know who, or where? The DfE are fanatical about keeping failed bids and reasons secret, there's an ongoing legal process trying to force them to adhere to FoI law here.

Thomas Barry ● 4246d

"the trick will indeed be identifying a suitable site and if LBH don't know the local area then no-one will."Ealing actually went as far commissioning a report on suitable sites for secondary expansion, do we know if Hounslow's undertaken a similar exercise and if it's been published?

Thomas Barry ● 4246d

We have just heard that an application from another group to open a secondary school in Hounslow has not been successful in the recent round of bids.  This will make our project even more urgent! We all the community support we can get to make this work.

Roger Shortt ● 4246d

Of course Roger is absolutely correct, anyway the Lionel Rd. site is all done and dusted with planning permission granted so that's completely out of the question. I think most right thinking people feel the whole 'free school' debacle is a crock, but it is what we are lumbered with so have no option but to play the game, the trick will indeed be identifying a suitable site and if LBH don't know the local area then no-one will.

Vanessa Smith ● 4247d

Sadly the current situation is that we are facing the need for 2 or 3 new secondary schools and the only way gaining the funding is by the free school route. At least our application is being led by a strong group of headteachers, primary and secondary who have a record of well established success in running schools.

Roger Shortt ● 4247d

"the DfE will find us a site"I can see your problem right there.  The DfE are horrendously incompetent and shouldn't be micromanaging land allocation in local authority areas, the LA should be.This is, of course, the root of why free schools are such as boneheaded way of addressing the place crisis.

Thomas Barry ● 4248d

There's been massive objection in west London to these great monster tower blocks on the Lionel Road site - not sure how far the final planning has gone but worth contacting LBH - a school at that site would at least remove some of these monstrosities and would fulfill a much needed local service currently lacking in the present plans.  Maybe there'd be room for a doctor's surgery and a dentist too.  At the moment there's no mention of schools/medical services to cover the additional 900+ residents planned for those towers.  Worth a try!

Trudie Fuller ● 4248d

An interesting idea and in the right area.  Sadly its all a matter of timing. We have to make a successful application first and the DfE will find us a site and all the time sites are changing and being developed. Finding a site is an important issue and something that the planners in Hounslow are already involved in.

Roger Shortt ● 4248d

The Lionel Road site instead of the proposed tower blocks of luxury flats and for playing fields you'd have the football grounds - done and dusted!

Trudie Fuller ● 4248d

Just to confirm that our intention is to establish an open and inclusive school which reflects the local community and also prepares young people for the wider international world.  We all recognize that the world continues to change quickly and that young people need these days a very wide set of abilities and learned skills with which to succeed.

Roger Shortt ● 4249d

Point taken Kath.

Diana Oppe ● 4249d

Thomas - usually I agree with you but from what Roger says this seems more like a proper school in Free School clothes. And at least until the election there will be no funding for anything else.

Guy Lambert ● 4249d

A reply concerning who will run the school and the issue of possible extremism.  Hounslow headteachers are well aware of these issues and that is why they are keen to establish a school themselves which has a very open governance structure and which will continue to be a member of Hounslow's family of schools. All of those involved in the project group are very experienced and well established and trusted in their own Hounslow schools. We would also expect some involvement with the local authority. Our group is very clear about the vision for the school being totally open and inclusive in everyway possible.

Roger Shortt ● 4249d

"What will you do to ensure that people with extreme views be they political, religious, or divisive will not become governors or have any involvement with school life."Define 'extreme views' - the whole free school movement is pretty extreme, frankly.  Certainly attracts some very odd people.

Thomas Barry ● 4249d

Secular means separation of church and state, i.e. no religion.Non denominational means not linked with any particular religious denomination or can mean all denominations. Hence it does not mean not religious.

Kath Richardson ● 4249d

What will you do to ensure that people with extreme views be they political, religious, or divisive will not become governors or have any involvement with school life.What will the school do to have rounded, informed but not brainwashed pupils?What will the school do in terms of discipline and turning out well behaved and responsible young adults?

Raymond Havelock ● 4251d

Is secular the same as multi faith? Prefer non denominational which infers no religion.

Diana Oppe ● 4251d

What's wrong with just calling it secular?

Kath Richardson ● 4251d

In response to Vanessa's message the HIP project group will be changing the publicity at the next print run to read - non-denominational. We hope that that is re-assuring for people.  Any more comments or suggestions? Roger

Roger Shortt ● 4252d

An interesting point particularly with the current debates in the media. The main aim is to ensure an inclusive school - that is truly representative of the local community. I will raise your point with the group.

Roger Shortt ● 4254d

Can we not have 'multi-faith' - rather non-denominational?

Vanessa Smith ● 4254d

Thank you for your support. As Hounslow head teachers the group that it feels that it knows its community well and is keen also not to destabalize existing primary transfer patterns.  We want to put a school exactly where it is needed and of the type which is needed. Parents in Brentford and Isleworth have for a long time talked about the need for a mixed, multi-faith school and that is exactly what we want to see established.

Roger Shortt ● 4254d

Yes, of course it's not suitable for a school - just happens to infuriate me!I wish you success - it seems like what you're trying to do is badly needed and I'd much rather have Hounslow head teachers leading than anybody else.

Guy Lambert ● 4254d

Dear Guy - Hounslow knows that we are likely to need a building if we are successful and I know that the council has been looking at a range of sites across the borough. I have been looking at the building you mention and yes it must have been empty 15 or so years and has never been used.  Sadly there is little space around it so not much good for a school.Hounslow knows it needs more schools so hopefully they will be supportive of this project. Thanks for your interest.

Roger Shortt ● 4254d

Roger, are you in touch with Hounslow about this? I'm not sure whether in the current circumstances it's anything to do with them but it would be interesting to know their views.I have a hobby horse about that 'headquarters' office block on the A4/Boston Manor Road junction. It was built at least 15 years ago and has NEVER had a tenant. If the council (or somebody) could multiply the business rates bill for the empty building by 15 they'd be begging to put a school in it!

Guy Lambert ● 4255d

Nobody wants to take away valuable playing fields and it is interesting to see a number of empty office blocks around Hounslow which should be converted into housing or perhaps might host a new school. The need for this school is very clear otherwise pupils might have to face long journeys to school and that can be very limiting for young peoples education.

Roger Shortt ● 4255d

Actually I did mention sports fields and as I said Boston Manor is only a short walk along the towpath

Paul Phillips ● 4255d

No.

Vanessa Smith ● 4255d

OK. They are frequently used. That was a lazy observation by me as I had nothing to draw that conclusion. But would you agree that there is quite a lot of land for potential expansion on those sites whilst still accommodating for a decent sized playing field? 

Fadi Farhat ● 4255d

I cannot for the life of me fathom out how you've arrived at the conclusion that the playing fields of the schools mentioned are 'rarely used'. The land to the rear of the Green School is actually leased to Isleworth & Syon and is used a hell of a lot as is the land on the school site. Heathland's sports pitches are also used extensively and used by the public too. Specialisms are not now the flavour of the month since the advent of Mr. Gove.

Vanessa Smith ● 4255d

"you would have to think outside the box and build up not sideways"Doesn't help you find space for sports facilities or break times, which needs at least some outside space.  Shared grounds between a few local schools might be one way forward there, but that requires collaboration rather than atomisation of control.One thing I haven't seen mentioned for a while was the Twyford free school plan for the GSK sports fields north of hte M4 - that would obviously be ultra religiously selective and much less of a good idea than the kind of school we're talking about here, but it does indicate that sites do exist, and again a shared option might be worth exploring.Final option - some of the low rise office parks along the south side of the A4 around GSK, particularly those with pointlessly big car parks.  Not sure how many of them are let, and the cost is likely to be staggering given that the alternative will be flogging them for housing.

Thomas Barry ● 4255d

Roger, This is a great initiative from the Hounslow's Headteachers. We will need at least two more secondary schools (at the very least) to meet growing demand over the next 10-15 years. Bearing that in mind, any school would need to be mixed, multi-faith and inclusive in order to accommodate numbers in an optimum way.  There isn't a mixed secondary school between Chiswick and central Hounlsow. That is quite a large stretch of the borough and this needs addressing. I should imagine that the majority of residents would support this bid. The only major objections which I can envisage (wherever the school will be) will be traffic-related problems as well as the added energy and boisterousness which comes with a lot of school pupils in a new area (some may even call it anti-social behaviour). Quite frankly, for me, such concerns are trumped by the need to provide access to good education. Any such disadvantages are a necessary evil for want of a better phrase.  In terms of expansion, however, I do feel that the borough's existing secondary schools need a comprehensive expansion strategy. The Heathland School, Isleworth & Syon, the Lampton School and the Green School all have large fields and playing areas (rarely used) which could be used more efficiently if expansion where to be an option. Will this bid propagate any particular specialism? The Heathland School is a Mathematics School. The Green School is a Science School. Cranford is a Language School and Isleworth & Syon has a good sporting tradition. - Fadi  

Fadi Farhat ● 4255d

As far as I've been informed the bus garage will not be relocated but merged with an existing Metroline garage. My partner is a bus driver there and this is what is being said though no date or anything firm has happened as of yet. Also as I said you would have to think outside the box and build up not sideways, not necessarily what is wanted but that is London life for the future. Also don't know the ins and outs of Ballymore or Watermans but isn't Watermans council owned and if so they can pretty much do as is needed then?

Paul Phillips ● 4255d

My impression is that Commerce Road has already been committed as a site for a primary school and it's just a matter of logistics moving the bus depot (impression - I could be wrong).I struggle to see where you could fit a secondary school. The Watermans site might just do it but even if the Ballymore scheme goes ahead and relocates the Watermans it will be about 97 years before the site is available.

Guy Lambert ● 4255d

IMO different thinking is needed here especially regarding a secondary school. Regarding Commerce Road, playing field wise it is only a short walk to Boston Manor, it would have to be a multi-storey building (sorry, but education before nimbyism)and if the depot is earmarked as a primary school, if the plan is for it to be for local kids then you should have a seamless introduction. The only flaw in my cunning plan that I can see, though no doubt you'll all come up with loads instead of resolutions, is that where all the commercial units have already been bought by a property developer. Also surely where the Watermans Arts Centre is would be a better location for an infants school?

Paul Phillips ● 4256d

"Brentford Police Station Ideal"Surrounded as it is by playing fields and in no way squashed between two existing schools and a main road.  Oh, wait.[go onto Google Maps, put on satellite view and compare the land take of the police station and Brentford Girls.  Schools, traditionally, take up very large areas of land, which is why it's so damn hard to find space for them in a land use environment that's been deliberately deprived of public planning and control as a matter of policy]

Thomas Barry ● 4256d

Schools need space and the police station site has none. Bus station may be better...how many playing fields will fit there? How about Griffin Park?

Diana Oppe ● 4256d

Bus depot site ideal.Brentford Police Station Ideal.  State owned and should not be up for sale to Property consortiums. It should be reserved for public or state use.

Raymond Havelock ● 4256d

I think there is a primary school planned for the bus depot site.

Keith Iddon ● 4256d

Every inch of Brentford has been earmarked for development but there is nowhere  where an adequate site for a school can be placed.It won't be acceptable to use parks or allotments.Without decent amenities for people of all ages there's not a lot of point in having children. When they are older there will be nothing but living like hamsters to look forward to.This is why the Brentford plan needs a complete rethink. It needs to be amenities first. Schools, health and care facilities, open spaces for recreational use, then small business facilities, then affordable family housing and then and only then luxury developments.Having lived in the Rabbit Warren that is Hong Kong, I have to say the first few years were great and a lot of fun, but after a few years it gradually becomes oppressive and impossible to find any form of solitude. No escape from people, noise and traffic. Eventually the metropolis loses it's allure. Awful for families and kids who are gadget dependent as the only means of a life.We really must not let Brentford or any of this district become like that.

Raymond Havelock ● 4257d

Surely  the area to look into placing this school would be Commerce Road as I understand that the whole of that street is being redeveloped (I know the bus garage is going).

Paul Phillips ● 4257d

Yes! Yes! Yes! As a Brentford parent of 3, whose children did not wish to attend single sex schools, I wholeheartedly support this plan. And how great that the heads of our already outstanding schools are the ones to take it forward.

Diana Oppe ● 4257d

We agree absolutely and that is why it is Hounslow headteachers are trying to take a lead rather than waiting for someone else to come in to set up a school.  We know where the strategic need is and how the new school will fit into the overall system rather than being an unneeded add-on.Hoping that this comment helps.

Roger Shortt ● 4259d

Good Idea it will be needed, but where is there a site.Small businees are being prised out all over the place losing thousands of career type jobs to be replaced by hundreds of menial type jobs.Parks and allotments next? Then we will end up with Hong Kong style overcrowding with no means of recreation short of Hamster like gyms.That's why the whole thing needs a big rethink.  You can't put a quart into a pint glass.

Raymond Havelock ● 4259d

Hi again - we are looking at 6 forms of entry and a 6th form. The council is aware that a site needs to be found. Overall it is likely that all of our schools will need to expand and that as well as that might need two or three more secondary schools to cope with the bulge in numbers coming through. Most of our primary schools have been expanded over the past two to three years.  Roger

Roger Shortt ● 4260d

Good, apart from the site thing, which you'd need council help for, I suspect.What size of school are we talking here?  Y7-11? Plus sixth form?  How many forms of entry?As for sites, unless the council can earmark a site to stop it being developed for housing you're going to find it rather difficult to avoid the common Free School Office Block Syndrome where a knackered old office block is repurposed in some way.  There are a few of those around.

Thomas Barry ● 4260d

Hi Thomas - some answers to your questions - Yes the school is being set up by Hounslow headteachers, and we are looking for a site now. We have the support of our local primary and secondary schools who recognize the need for a mixed school in this area and this is also the view of the council in its recent predictions of need. Finally we are planning a non-selective, mixed and inclusive school and yes it is in response to rise in numbers. And no we are not a chain.  Hope that that helps - Roger

Roger Shortt ● 4260d

"What are your views?"Well, putting aside my view that Free Schools are an appallingly inefficient and pointlessly ideological way of providing new school places, moderately in favour *if*:1) It's run by education professionals, rather than by amateurs, or right wing ideologues, or Toby Young. But I repeat myself.  Also not by an academy chain, please, I want a school with its own local identity, not a corporate brand.2) It's got a site suitable for a school earmarked (this is pretty much *the* major issue with free schools, ahead of losing the founding headmaster within a few months, and fraud, and general incompetence, and arrogance, and being run by and for loonies)3) It's got the full, demonstrated support of both the council and local primary and secondary schools, such that its creation is not dependent on a return of a Conservative led government next year but can proceed in a locally determined way4) Its intention is to provide a non-selective comprehensive education for an intake based on proximity to the school rather than an array of bizarre admissions hoops 5) Its primary reason for existing is to provide a suitable standard of education for a growing school population in a way that collaborates with existing schools, not to compete with them.Sound reasonable?

Thomas Barry ● 4260d

Hi Sarah - we are hoping for the Brentford and Isleworth area but as yet we do not have a site, but will start searching if our bid is successful. Do you have any ideas?

Roger Shortt ● 4260d

Where will the school be sited?

Sarah Felstead ● 4260d

Thanks Vanessa - your support much appreciated. Do look at our website hipeducation.org.uk and do tell your friends.

Roger Shortt ● 4260d

Absolutely support this idea, I wish it didn't have to be a 'free school', but hey! we have to obey the great Mr. Gove and his ideologues. This area has undoubtedly needed a co-ed secondary school for years, and we know there will be a huge problem when the current primary school bulge reaches secondary age, so there needs to be more provision. Glad to see that teachers are thinking well ahead and wish this bid every success.

Vanessa Smith ● 4260d