The honesty in politics thread
Don't laugh, but Robin Taylor has accepted my challenge to a debate on the subject of honesty in our local politics.As this is clearly to be a debate of a political nature, I hope those who are not interested in political issues will simply avoid it rather than trying to shout it down. As the choice of subject matter means it must inevitably be a fairly one-sided debate I don't expect the thread to be on the front page forever.He has kicked off by asking me to justify a statement I made in August on the subject of Mogden (taken from a press release):"Isleworth community councillor Phil Andrews commented: 'A spokesperson for Mrs Keen recently announced that she and her party intended to work separately from residents on the Mogden issue as they didn't wish to be involved with the resident-led campaign.'"The search facility on this site doesn't interrogate very well for a non-techie like me, but here is a statement made by Robin Taylor on this forum on 27th August 2009, and he himself tells us he had made a similar statement earlier:"As I've said before, my view is that Ann should go round MRAG and deal with residents direct on this issue - until such times as you relinquish your political control of MRAG."MRAG is, of course, a resident-led body. It was launched at two public meetings each with a three-figure attendance and collected the signatures of nearly 4,000 residents in its initial petition. The residents' legal claim in which MRAG members are lead litigants is supported by 1,400 active participants. The local authorities and all the local media recognise it as the undisputed voice of residents living in the vicinity of Mogden. Robin's suggestion that Ann Keen should "go round" it (his reference to ICG political control of MRAG is just an application of his reverse psychology technique - those familiar with NuLab-speak will understand he is complaining that MRAG is resident-led and not under Labour Party discipline).So much of my supposed lack of honesty.Now here's a few from Robin and his friends:1. SUE KNOWS ROBIN BUT ROBIN DOESN'T KNOW SUE"I cannot vouch for Sue Sampson and Gloria Shortt because I have not met either (my italics). However, since you claim that they had identical letters published I will take your word for it."Robin Taylor 02/06/09"Robin's no secret we've known him for years."Sue Sampson 17/11/092. AN ALLEGATION NOT INTENDED TO BE TRUE IN THE LITERAL SENSE"Still, at least Waterloo is closer than Portugal (which is where you spend most of your time)."Robin Taylor, to myself 15/11/09"my comment was not intended to be true in the literal sense (and any fool could have seen that)"Robin Taylor (after having been asked repeatedly to substantiate his allegation) 16/11/093. OUR LETTERS ARE ALL SPONTANEOUS OUTPOURINGS OF AFFECTION FOR OUR MP, NOBODY TELLS US WHAT TO WRITE"I write to you in regard to several newspaper articles published in the national press recently."These stories are about our MP, Ann Keen's, expenses. At first glance the stories appear to be saying that Ann Keen has been cheating, and claiming things which are not entitled to her."However, if you read the entire article and dig around you can finally see that she has broken no rules and has done nothing wrong."I see it as shameful that an MP's good name can be dragged through the mud when they have actually broken no rules."I know for a fact that her office deals with a huge amount of casework throughout the entire year and I can't imagine an MP being able to work harder for her constituents."Sue SampsonWoodstock AvenueIsleworth."Hounslow & Brentford Times 30/05/08"I write to you in regard to several newspaper articles published in the national press recently."These stories are about our MP, Ann Keen's, expenses. At first glance the stories appear to be saying that Ann Keen has been cheating, and claiming things which are not entitled to her."However, if you read the entire article and dig around you can finally see that she has broken no rules and has done nothing wrong."I see it as shameful that an MP's good name can be dragged through the mud when they have actually broken no rules."I know for a fact that her office deals with a huge amount of casework throughout the entire year and I can't imagine an MP being able to work harder for her constituents."Gloria ShorttEaling RoadBrentford."Hounslow Chronicle 12/06/084. ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF POLITICAL OPPONENTS"How he can claim to have changed and yet continue to describe Nick Griffin as his 'old mucker' is beyond me. On a local internet forum, he said the BNP leader is 'interesting to speak to' as well as 'very clever, witty and articulate'...On the same internet forum in July 2006, Mr Andrews saw fit to launch a blistering attack on the anti-fascist organisation Searchlight."Sue Sampson writing to the Hounslow Chronicle, 5th November 2009 (what is it about this girl and bonfires?)"Old mucker of mine though he may be, I can understand why there are people who would want to throw eggs at British National Party Chairman Nick Griffin. Denounced for years as the leader of a party which can trace its genealogy directly back - via the National Front, John Tyndall's Greater Britain Movement and Colin Jordan's National Socialist Movement - to Arnold Leese, the man who first conceived of gas chambers as the solution to the 'problem' of Jewish people living in the world and who rejected Sir Oswald Mosley for his moderation, Griffin is now one of two men representing the BNP at the European Parliament..."Rather than allowing him the opportunity to explain to the world why his 'non-racist' party refuses to admit non-white members, or how it defines 'Britishness' according to skin pigmentation rather than place of birth or length of residence, Nick Griffin was able not only to present himself as the champion of democracy and free speech, but even to implicate the three major parties in the egg-throwing protest by virtue of the fact they have given in-principle support to the organisation he alleges to have been responsible for it..."As a result of Labour's failure the rest of us are compelled to share the humiliation of having sent two men to Europe to make common cause with all manner of madmen and lunatics, with all the taxpayer-funded financial benefits that will bring to themselves and their organisations."In the London Borough of Hounslow the Independent Community Group (ICG), holds six seats and with it the balance of power on the council. In the community we talk about the issues that local people want to talk about. We get things done. With 1,500 members spread out largely over two wards signed up to a program of positive community action, radical but outspokenly anti-racist, imaginative, unconventional and people-centred there is no space in which the BNP or any other racist party could successfully operate..."And yet this is the Politics That Dare Not Speak Its Name. A popular anti-fascist blog on which I frequently post only ever blocks my contributions when I dare to suggest that it is the community itself, not the Labour Party, to which we should be looking in the fight against fascism..."The concept is not restricted to my own neighbourhood. There are residents' groups and action parties springing up all around the place which strike the same chord as we do with voters who are fed up the mainstream politicians and their parties. They are organic, supported and often joined by those whom conventional politics could never reach, and are fairly much insulated against the ebb and flow of political trends. There is not the slightest shadow of a doubt in my mind that they are, by some considerable margin, the most effective defence against organised fascism taking hold in our communities..."The problem for us for the moment is that, anti-fascism nothwithstanding, we still have more eggs thrown at us than the leader of the BNP does."Myself 09/06/09 (abridged, full version can be found here)."I distance myself from all significant aspects of NF/BNP ideology but, sadly, I could not be accused of having done so 'at speed' as it took me some fourteen years and a bit to finally prise my head from my ****."As recently as a couple of weeks ago Nick Griffin stated publicly that somebody born in the UK who was not white could never be considered British. How he squares this with the BNP's alleged new 'non-racist' stance is quite beyond me."I think you would find Nick Griffin interesting to speak to. He is a very clever, witty and articulate man. "But anybody who votes for him or his party is playing with fire. Telling millions of our fellow citizens that they are unwelcome and could potentially be ejected from their homes, jobs and country seems to me to be rather too much of a price to pay just to send a few greedy politicians a message."Myself 25/05/09The "blistering attack on the anti-fascist organisation Searchlight" can be found over ChiswickW4.com on a thread entitled "Today's Chronicle: local Labour Party stoops to lower levels!!". My post is on 10/07/06 at 01:24:00 and can be seen quite clearly to be a criticism from an anti-racist perspective of an organisation claiming to be anti-fascist which had been helping New Labour politicians in Hounslow to misrepresent me at the time. As I explained in a later posting to Robin:"So let me get the sequence of events correct (from your own words). Searchlight attacked me for having sustained a criminal conviction in 1986. In response I pointed out its double-standards considering the long line of convictions sustained by many of its own employees. And the fact that I did so proves that I am still am still a fascist and a member of the National Front?"I'll leave others to comment on that logic."5. ATTEMPTS TO POLITICISE THE ICGAll correspondence on 22nd November 2009:At 20:00 Tony Wood wrote:"I remind you again that in a previous post you stated that you 'Wanted to remove the last vestiges of socialism from the Civic Centre' that's not very objective for someone with no political agenda is it?"At 20:33 I wrote:"I have no quarrel with socialism as an ideal and so this is not something that I could imagine myself saying. I realise of course that some Labour spokespeople now and again interchange the words 'New Labour' with 'socialism' (my italics - at this point I had no recollection of the quote to which he was referring!) when they want to be thought of as idealists rather than just unashamed power-seekers but then you are not one of them, are you Tony?"At 20:40 Tony Wood wrote (quoting an earlier posting by myself):"'I am really looking forward to eradicating the last vestiges of New Labour control at Hounslow Civic Centre. If/when you ever regain control of the borough, say in the year 2050, you will inherit an organisation which is based upon the principles of honour, democracy, equality and fairness.'"At 20:45 I wrote:"Thank you for that Tony. Clearly I need spectacles, because I cannot see the word 'socialism' anywhere in the quote that you have produced. I suppose an apology is out of the question?"At 20:52 Tony Wood wrote:"I'll willingly apologise for using the word Socialism for NuLabour if thats required no problem..my only excuse is that I've just driven 1100 miles in two days through Hell and high water. "At 20:57 I wrote:"You are a spoilsport Tony - I was seconds away from starting a new thread highlighting your substituting of the words 'New Labour' with the word 'socialism' - something New Labour activists often do when they wish to paint their party in an idealistic light but which is highly unusual behaviour for a neutral."Perhaps I am Mystic Meg after all? 6. "YOU CALL IT DISHONESTY, WE CALL IT POLITICS"Councillor Ruth Cadbury, Deputy Leader LBH Labour Group in a debate at Borough Council about making false claims on campaign literature during by-elections 24/07/07She wasn't kidding, was she?
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